Message no. 491 Posted by Thomas Culhane (1311520071) on
Hi Crewmates,
Thought you might like to peek in on the discussions going on in my wife's course on Sport's Psychology -- they are exploring an area of environmental psychology we don't really consider in our course -- the effect of the sport's arena and the virtual and real spaces of rule-based competition and its effect on behavior and values. A heated discussion began about the behavior of a "hooligan" who killed a policeman during a soccer game in
Perhaps this can stimulate a discussion of our own!
The Captain
FROM DR. SYBILLE CULHANE TO HER STUDENTS:
Dear TEAM:
Please accept some profound thoughts of a German-American (Iraqi-Irish heritage) couple that consider themselves to be Global Nomads on your latest post.
Author: Student in Sports Psychology Date:
Whether or not people are born evil or not, evil exists. We want to believe that people are basically good. I think that is a naïve belief.
PSYCHOLOGY DOESN'T OPERATE ACCORDING TO BELIEF SYSTEMS BUT ACCORDING TO INFORMED SKEPTICISM AND THE REJECTION OF NULL HYPOTHESES. EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT MOST HUMAN ORGANISMS ARE BORN WITH THE SAME PREDISPOSITIONS AND, THROUGH RESPONSES TO ENVIRONMENTAL CUES, DEVELOP PERSONALITIES THAT HELP THEM COPE WITH ENVIRONMENTAL AND SOCIAL STRESSORS. THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF HUMAN BEINGS OBSERVED SHOW A SOPHISTICATED ABILITY TO MODIFY THEIR BEHAVIORS ACCORDING TO CONTEXTUAL CHANGES. WE OBSERVE THAT PEOPLE WHO CAN BE CRUEL IN ONE SETTING CAN BE KIND IN ANOTHER.
TO SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE "BASICALLY GOOD" OR "BASICALLY EVIL" IS TO CONFOUND THE STUDY OF BEHAVIORAL RESPONSES WITH MORAL JUDGEMENTS. SHAKESPEARE WROTE "THERE IS NOTHING GOOD OR BAD BUT THINKING MAKES IT SO", AND THIS IS A POSITION THAT MOST PSYCHOLOGISTS WOULD ENDORSE.
Someone that murders or rapes a young child is pure evil.
SOCIETY HAS DETERMINED, OVER CENTURIES OF PONDERING THE BIG QUESTIONS, THAT MURDER AND RAPE ARE UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIORS THAT HINDER THE CREATION AND MAINTAINANCE OF A WELL FUNCTIONING COLLECTIVE THAT MAXIMIZES UTILITY FOR THE MAJORITY OF ITS INHABITANTS. HENCE, WE CALL THESE BEHAVIORS "EVIL". THE USE OF THE MORAL TERM "EVIL" ILLICITS A CONDITIONED RESPONSE IN PEOPLE SOCIALIZED TO RESPOND TO THE DEMANDS AND BEHAVIORAL NORMS OF THOSE WHOM THEY PERCEIVE TO BE HIGHER AUTHORITIES. THIS ENABLES A GREATER CONTROL OVER BEHAVIOR THAN LEAVING THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THESE BEHAVIORS EVER HAVE LEGITIMATE USES OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. WHEN YOU QUALIFY YOUR DEFINITION OF "PURE" EVIL WITH THE HYPOTHETICAL MURDER OR RAPE OF A "YOUNG CHILD" (AS OPPOSED TO MERELY ANY HUMAN BEING, REGARDLESS OF AGE) YOU ARE ALREADY SUGGESTING THAT THE MURDER OR RAPE OF SOMEONE OF A DIFFERENT AGE MIGHT BE PERMISSIBLE IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. IT IS JUST SUCH A DEBATE THAT RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES WANTED TO SPARE US BY INSISTING ON "COMMANDMENTS" THAT ARE CATEGORICAL (I.E. "THOU SHALT NOT KILL") AS OPPOSED TO INCREMENTAL (I.E. "THOU SHALT NOT KILL YOUNG CHILDREN").
We can try to re program some, but it’s not going to always work, look at the numbers of convicted criminals that commit crime again,…
ALL BEHAVIORAL MODIFICATION ATTEMPTS, AS WITH ALL ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL OTHERS, HAVE ONLY STATISTICALLY MEASUREABLE SUCCESS RATES -- THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES, AND THERE IS NOTHING IN PSYCHOLOGY OR SOCIOLOGY THAT "ALWAYS" WORKS. EVEN IN PHYSICS THERE ARE ONLY PROBABILITIES. I THINK THAT IF WE DO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS OF CONVICTED CRIMINALS THAT COMMIT CRIMES AGAIN, AND SORT OUR DATA ACCORDING TO VARIABLES SUCH AS "POST-REPROGRAMMING JOB OPPORTUNITIES", "RACIAL BARRIERS TO REINTEGRATION TO SOCIETY" AND "ISOLATION FROM DEMANDS FROM OTHERS OPERATING AT A PROFIT IN THE INFORMAL ECONOMY" WE WOULD FIND THAT THE REASONS CONVICTED CRIMINALS CONTINUE TO COMMIT CRIMES IS MORE STRUCTURAL THAN INDIVIDUAL -- IN FACT, BY GENERALIZING USING STATISTICS YOU ARE ALREADY TACITLY ADMITTING THAT YOU PERCEIVE THIS AS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM AND DON'T NEED TO KNOW THE PERSONALITY PROFILES OF THE INDIVIDUAL CRIMINALS!
…like I asked you with the fans how long do we continue to try?
MOST EXPERIMENTS REQUIRE A
You said “reprogram” them and educate them, easy to say, but what actual words would you say?
I AM NOT A CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGIST SO I DON’T FEEL QUALIFIED TO PRESCRIBE ANY DEFINITIVE TREATMENT. I MAY AGREE WITH YOU THAT SOME ADULTS WOULD REQUIRE SO MUCH TREATMENT THAT IT MAY NOT BE WORTH THE SOCIAL COST. BUT I DO FEEL THAT WE NEED TO CREATE STRUCTURAL ENVIRONMENTS THAT PREVENT CHILDREN FROM GROING UP TO BE CRIMINALS.
MUCH OF WHAT WE CALL “CRIMINAL” BEHAVIOR STARTS OUT AS AN ATTEMPT TO SURVIVE IN AN INFORMAL ECONOMY WHEN THE FORMAL ECONOMY HAS CRIMINALIZED CERTAIN PROFIT MAKING ACTIVITIES THAT ARE COMPETITIVE WITH ESTABLISHED BUSINESS. FOR EXAMPLE, THE
FOR MOST ORGANISMS, THE TRANSACTION COSTS OF ENGAGING IN VIOLENT BEHAVIOR TO ACHIEVE A GOAL ARE CONSIDERED TOO HIGH RELATIVE TO OTHER MEANS. WHEN SOCIETIES OFFER OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE “BASIC RIGHTS” (ACCESS TO HEALTHY FOOD, AIR AND WATER, SHELTER FROM THE ELEMENTS, OPPORTUNITIES TO ACCUMULATE PROPERTY IN A CONTEXT OF WELL DEFINED AND DEFENDED PROPERTY RIGHTS) WE FIND THE OCCURRENCE OF VIOLENCE TO BE RELATIVELY RARE. WHERE THE STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS DO NOT PERMIT THE PEACEFUL ATTAINMENT OF THESE GOALS, WE SEE PEOPLE RESORTING TO ACQUISITION “BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY”.
They haven’t figured it out yet.
I’M NOT SURE WHICH “THEY” YOU ARE REFERRING TO! ACTUALLY THERE HAVE BEEN MANY STUDIES REPORTED IN THE ECONOMICS, PSYCHOLOGY, SOCIOLOGY, SOCIOBIOLOGY, ANTHROPOLOGY AND POLITICAL SCIENCE LITERATURES THAT SHOW HIGH STATISTICAL SIGNIFICANCE FOR HYPOTHESES SUGGESTING THAT WE CAN SUCCESSFULLY TREAT CRIMINALITY BY REMOVING INSTITUTIONAL BARRIERS TO THE ATTAINMENT OF CLEAR PROPERTY RIGHTS AND APPLYING OUR “BILL OF RIGHTS” UNIFORMLY.
If you believe in the bible, it says that evil is real, Satan is the leader of evil spirits, once was a good angel which was thrown out of heaven, also that evil comes to us when we don’t believe in Gods kingdom, Which is why in the Lords prayer we pray “deliver us from evil.”
ONE DOESN’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE TO KNOW THAT EVIL IS REAL, BUT IF YOU DO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE YOU KNOW THAT IT SAYS WE HAVE A GOD OF LOVE AND FORGIVENESS – “DEUS CARITAS EST”! THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS FROM THE ENCYCLICAL LETTER OF POPE BENEDICT XVI IN 2005. (see http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html)
“God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John
THE SPIRIT OF THIS COMMANDMENT IS OBVIOUS: ASK YOURSELF HOW YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED IF YOU FOUND YOURSELF ON THE “WRONG SIDE OF THE LAW” OR HAVING COMMITTED AN “EVIL” ACT; PONDER WHAT SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL FACTORS MADE YOU DO THE “WRONG” THING, AND LOOK INTO THE POSSIBLE REPROGRAMMING METHODOLOGIES YOU THINK MIGHT WORK WITH YOU. IF YOU ASSUME THAT YOU CAN’T BE FIXED, AND ARE WILLING TO LET OTHERS PUNISH YOU WITHOUT RECOURSE TO A FAIR TRIAL AND AN ATTEMPT TO GIVE YOU A SECOND CHANCE, YOU MIGHT THEN HAVE AN ARGUMENT FOR WHY YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DENY SUCH A CHANCE TO ANOTHER. BUT YOU WOULD FIRST HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU TRULY UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE HEAD OF SOMEBODY WHO HAD COMMITTED “EVIL”. OTHERWISE YOU RISK COMMITTING MORE EVIL BY ASSUMING THAT YOUR JUDGEMENTS OF WHEN IT IS OKAY TO KILL OR ABUSE WITHOUT CONSENT (RAPE IS A FORM OF ABUSE WITHOUT CONSENT) ARE UNIVERSAL. WHERE DO YOU GET THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS? IF YOU READ THE BIBLE YOU WILL SEE THAT YOU CAN’T FIND BIBLICAL AUTHORITY FOR NOT TRYING TO EXTEND GOD’S LOVE AND FORGIVENESS TO YOUR NEIGHBORS. SO WHERE DO YOU DERIVE YOUR AUTHORITY FROM?
We want to and should try to “do unto others as you would have others do unto you”, but what happens when that doesn’t work,…
WHEN IT DOESN’T WORK, WE TOO OFTEN REFUSE TO LOOK DEEPER AT OUR METHODS AND OUR PREJUDICES AND FEARS AND OUR STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS AND WE DECIDE TO TAKE THE EASY WAY OUT AND MAKE MORALLY QUESTIONABLE JUDGEMENTS. GOD CHALLENGES US TO LIVE IN A WORLD FILLED WITH EVIL WITHOUT SUCCUMBING TO THE TEMPTATION TO BE EVIL AS WELL. IN OUR LORD’S PRAYER WE FOLLOW JESUS IN ASKING NOT TO BE LED INTO TEMPTATION, BUT SATAN LEADS US THERE ANYWAY! THE GREATEST TEMPTATION WE HAVE IS TO FOLLOW SATAN’S LEAD AND FOLLOW AN EVIL ACT BY ANOTHER EVIL ACT. AND THE WORST HUBRIS (ONE OF THE 7 DEADLY SINS) IS TO DECIDE WE HAVE THE MORAL AUTHORITY OF GOD HIMSELF. ONCE WE YIELD TO THE TEMPTATION OF BELIEVING WE CAN JUDGE ANOTHER, WE ARE LOST. WE HAVE FAILED GOD’S GREATEST CHALLENGE. THEN WE ARE NO BETTER THAN OUR ENEMY.
…there are people such as terrorists that believe they are doing their gods will when they kill other people, going to heaven and getting 90 virgins, how do you reason/educate with that?
THOSE WHO PRETEND TO BE DOING GOD’S WILL ARE DOING EVIL – EVEN WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR OWN RELIGION! ISLAM DOES NOT IN ANY WAY GIVE MAN THE AUTHORITY TO
WE FIND THAT THE “TERRORISTS” ARE A TINY MAJORITY FOUND IN EVERY NATION BUT THEY ARE GIVEN DISPROPORTIONATE POWER BY THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX – A SET OF BUSINESS AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS WHO ARM THEM WITH POWERFUL WEAPONS AND USE THEIR ZEALOUS FANATICISM TO ACCOMPLISH RATHER MUNDANE SECULAR GOALS. IF YOU WISH TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX WATCH THE MOVIE “WHY WE FIGHT”, A MIND-OPENING DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE REASONS FOR GOING TO WAR. WE BOTH AGREE THAT ANY HUMAN BEING WHO HAS COMMITTED MURDER NEEDS TO BE REMOVED FROM SOCIETY AND FROM ACCESS TO ANY MEANS TO HARM OTHERS. MY HUSBAND ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THE DEATH PENALTY IS JUSTIFIED, THOUGH I DO NOT, AND HE WAS ACTUALLY GLAD THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN (WHO WAS NOT A TERRORIST BUT A TERRORISM SPONSOR, AS ARE MANY PRESIDENTS OF WESTERN COUNTRIES) WAS HANGED. BUT MORE IMPORTANT THAN TRYING TO “WIPE OUT” TERRORISTS BY INFLICTING MORE TERROR ON COMMUNITIES (WHICH IS THE ONLY METHOD WE SEEM TO ENGAGE IN!) WE BELIEVE IN CREATING STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS WHEREBY THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION NO LONGER BELIEVES THE TERRORISTS ARE THE LEGITIMATE REPRESENTATIVES OF THEIR CONCERNS. WHEN THAT HAPPENS, AS IT DID IN
We tried to reason with Hitler give in to him Land for peace but, that didn’t work.
YOU ARE CONFLATING CRIMINALS WITH TERRORISTS WITH WORLD LEADERS, AND THEY ARE QUITE DIFFERENT IN ETIOLOGY AND CONSEQUENCE. TO GO FROM DISENFRANCHISED HOOLIGANS OUTSIDE A SPORTS STADIUM ALL THE WAY TO THE NAZI REGIME IS QUITE A LEAP!
I MUST SAY, AS A GERMAN WHOSE GRANDFATHER WAS REGRETTABLY FORCED TO SERVE IN THE NAZI PARTY, I HEAR MORE OF A “FASCIST” ATTITUDE IN YOUR DESIRE FOR A “FINAL SOLUTION” TO STOP EVIL IN ITS TRACKS THAN A CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE. WE GERMANS WERE SEDUCED, TEMPTED, BY A SIMILAR EVIL ATTITUDE WHEN THE THIRD REICH WAS IN POWER – WE WERE ALSO TOLD THAT WE HAD TO “STOP EVIL IN ITS TRACKS” ONLY WE WERE TOLD THAT THE EVIL CAME FROM
AS WE ALL KNOW, THESE KINDS OF CATEGORICAL DECISIONS OVER WHO WE SHOULD LET LIVE AND WHO WE SHOULD LET DIE CREATED A HOLOCAUST.
I’M NOT SURE WHERE YOU GET THE IDEA THAT “WE” TRIED TO REASON WITH “HITLER”, BUT SOCIOLOGIST’S WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED THAT ANY BUSINESS DEALS MADE WITH A POWERFUL POLITICIAN AND MILITARY LEADER WOULD BE LIKELY TO STOP HIM FROM REALIZING HIS MEGALOMANIAC VISION. NOBODY SHOULD HAVE TRIED TO REASON WITH HITLER – THE WEST SHOULD HAVE REASONED WITH THE GERMAN PEOPLE SO THAT THEY COULD HAVE SEEN WHAT HITLER WAS DOING TO THEM. THE WEST SHOULD HAVE DE-LEGITIMIZED
THE TRUTH IS THAT NOBODY TRIED TO REASON WITH OR EDUCATE THE GERMAN PEOPLE. THE GERMAN ECONOMY WAS DESTROYED IN WORLD WAR I, AND JUST AS THE PEOPLE WERE BEGINNING TO REBUILD, THE INTERNATIONAL BANKS MANIPULATED GERMAN CURRENCY DURING THE DEPRESSION TO FURTHER ERODE THE GERMAN ECONOMY. THEY CLOSED MARKETS TO THE GERMANS AND LED TRADE EMBARGOES ON VITAL SUPPLIES. WHEN THE GERMANS TRIED TO USE THEIR INTERNATIONAL ZEPPELIN INDUSTRY TO INCREASE CARGO TRADE AND TOURISM BETWEEN
AS A GERMAN IT IS MY BELIEF THAT IF THE ALLIES HAD EDUCATED AND REASONED WITH THE GERMAN PEOPLE, AND SUPPORTED US IN OUR OWN INTERNAL LIBERATION STRUGGLE, WE WOULD HAVE OVERTHROWN HITLER OURSELVES (IN FACT WE NEVER WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED HIM). SIMILARLY, IF THE IRAQI PEOPLE HAD BEEN SUPPORTED BY THE WORLD, THEY WOULD HAVE LONG AGO OUSTED SADDAM HUSSEIN. BUT WE HAVE PLAYED A GAME OF CAT AND MOUSE WITH SADDAM, GIVING HIM WEAPONS AND MILITARY ADVICE, THEN SLAPPING HIS WRIST, THEN GIVING HIM MORE, ALL FOR STRATEGIC PURPOSES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE. SIMILARLY, AS YOU KNOW, WE CREATED OSAMA BIN LADEN, WE TRAINED HIM AND GAVE HIM HIS WEAPONS.
I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT IT ISN’T THAT WE SHOULDN’T TRY TO REASON WITH BAD PEOPLE – IT IS THAT WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM A REASON TO PERPETUATE THEIR EVIL IN THE FIRST PLACE! AND I SUBMIT THAT WE DO THIS BEST BY GIVING EDUCATION AND REASON AND ENLIGHTENMENT TO THE MAJORITY – TO THE MASSES -- SO THAT THEY CAN STOP THE EVIL IN ITS TRACKS THEMSELVES.
When we see evil and “re- programming” doesn’t work, it has to be stopped in its tracks.
I THINK WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER. WHERE WE MAY DIFFER IS THAT I BELIEVE WE SHOULD FIRST BE VERY CONSCIENTIOUS ABOUT HOW WE USE “REPROGRAMMING” AND WHO WE USE IT ON AND WHY, AND WHEN WE DECIDE IT HAS FAILED TO WORK. AND I THINK WE SHOULD BE EVEN MORE CAREFUL ABOUT HOW WE DEFINE “EVIL” WHEN WE THINK WE SEE IT, LEST WE OURSELVES BECOME THE VERY THING WE ARE SO DESPERATELY TRYING TO STOP.
REMEMBER THESE IMMORTAL WORDS: “WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY, AND HE IS US.”
Sincerely,
Sybille and T.H. Culhane
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